Recently I heard talk show host Steve Deace go on a tirade on God Bless America. The gist of this rant was the question of "How can we ask and expect God to bless this country when we as a country have abandoned His ways?" This is a good question! While this nation was founded upon christian principles it has since abandoned many of them. We then have the gall to ask our God to bless us! Mr. Deace suggested very strongly that the USA should ask for forgiveness rather than His blessings.
While I agree with the above assesment I think that something very important has been left out. It is something which must preceed the request for forgiveness. For now I will leave it to you to offer your answers of what it should be.
What does America need to do in order to seek God's forgiveness and ask His blessings?
Why Does It Matter?
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36 comments:
Josiah, Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes they have closed; Lest haply they should perceive with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should turn again, And I should heal them.
Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all in like manner perish.
Deboraw
What is missing is national repentance. Repentance precedes forgiveness.
God is love, and He wants us to repent so He can forgive us, but He does require that we acknowledge our guilt and strive to turn from our sins and obey Him.
But as deboraw correctly points out, as a nation we are blinded to the truth. So except for the few whose minds God opens, there will not be a national repentance before God's punishment comes.
God will open people's minds and grant repentance, but there is a time order within God's plan, as illustrated by God's annual Holy Days. The next thing to happen is the tribulation, a time of trouble and punishment upon the United States and certain other countries. Then the Day of the Lord, then the return of Christ.
Josiah, (and Author) I have a dear family member who likes to talk about how wicked the USA is. I finally asked her 'do you think that the United States is the MOST wicked country in the world?' People would like to have us think so, but in truth we are just perceived as having more wealth by some other countries, and therefore they vilify the U.S. as more 'evil. Since we have heard that repeated so often, we tend to believe--we are an evil country. Having said that, we have according to God's Word, departed grievously from God. We aren't the most evil country, but because the world saw us as a 'christian' nation, they held us to a 'higher' standard morally. What our future holds when we have an impostor running for office who can say publicly we are a nation of not just Christians, but....
On the statement of the 'tribulation'. I know how author is going to respond, but I have to question the idea of a 'special' tribulation. The tribulation suffered during the first, second, and following centuries wasn't 'tribulation'? What a horrible time to suffer through! Being 'martyred' in the manner that quite a few of the early Christians were wasn't tribulation? Are we dopey or what? And believe it or not, I've even 'suffered' some 'tribulation' myself, from more than one source.
It's easy to pull these terms and ideas out of nowhere, or even out of context, and apply them to our own definition.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Mat 22:29 But Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.
Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit.
Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a ministry the more excellent, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which hath been enacted upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then would no place have been sought for a second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers In the day that I took them by the hand to lead them forth out of the land of Egypt; For they continued not in my covenant, And I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
2Co 3:13 and are not as Moses, who put a veil upon his face, that the children of Israel should not look steadfastly on the end of that which was passing away:
2Co 3:14 but their minds were hardened: for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remaineth, it not being revealed to them that it is done away in Christ.
2Co 3:15 But unto this day, whensoever Moses is read, a veil lieth upon their heart.
Mat 22:29 But Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
These are for your consideration. Deboraw
Dear Josiah,
You asked what does America need to do in order to seek God's forgivness and ask His blessings? I believe Peter said it best in Acts 2:38. or maybe it was in Acts 8:22 in dealing with Simon the sorcerer. Regardless, America needs to follow that advice.
Christian
Congratulations to all who answered that our nation needs to repent then ask for forgiveness. I might add to the scriptures already offered the following from Leviticus 26:3-4 If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; then I will give your rains in their season, and the land shall yield its increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. This shows the principle that God blesses the obedient.
I do have a question for "author". You mention God opening peoples minds. What exactly do you mean and upon what scripture do you base this contention?
Deboraw:
I do not think the United States is necessarily the most wicked nation, and I think your are correct on that point. But prophecy indicates that God will punish us first before He punishes the rest of the world. There is a time order in God's plan.
As far as the great tribulation is concerned, there have been many times of trouble and tribulation, and certainly the times you mention qualify as tribulation. But Jesus spoke of a particular time when He said, "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21). In saying that there has never been nor will be a time like it, Jesus is saying it will be the worse time of tribulation ever. "Tribulation" means trouble, and Jeremiah 30:7 says, "Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s trouble, But he shall be saved out of it." Both Christ and Jeremiah are speaking of the same time of trouble, because there can be only one such time that is worse than every other time of trouble. That is what I meant by the "great tribulation". It will fall upon the United States, Britain, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. Later, the entire world will be punished in the Day of the Lord.
Josiah:
Right now, Satan deceives the whole world (Revelation 12:9, Corinthians 4:3-4, Isaiah 25:7). This includes the people of Israel, who have a veil over their hearts and cannot understand and accept the truth. During this age of Satan's deception, only those whom God specially calls can come to Christ and really understand the truth (John 6:43-44). God opens the minds of those He is calling now, in this age, so they can understand the truth.
But after Christ returns to the earth (Acts 1:9-11), Satan will be put away and will no longer be able to deceive the nations (Revelation 20:1-3). At that time, Christ will be ruling the earth as King of Kings and will teach the truth to all nations and all peoples, and there will be no Satan around to deceive people. That is how God will open people's minds to the truth. And even before that happens, when we get close to the end of the age, the suffering of the tribulation and the Day of the Lord will humble man and make man know his limitations and his need for God and will help to prepare mankind for repentance, and that can also be considered part of the process. After Christ returns, and Satan is removed, then the masses all over the earth will know God and there will be peace and prosperity and happiness all over the earth for 1,000 years (Isaiah 11:9, Habakkuk 2:14, Jeremiah 31:33-34).
Author: can you please reconcile the following scriptures with your interpretation of John 6:43-44.
Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19-20, II Thessalonians 2:14, Acts 17:30 and Matthew 11:28
Author, Thank you, I didn't think that you thought that we were 'the most wicked nation', but there are those who do.
Lest you misunderstand, when referencing 'Are we dopey or what?' I am merely pointing out how ludicrous the IDEA would be that 'those days' spoken of were not 'tribulation'. The tribulation which Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24:21 was fulfilled in A.D. 70, during the Roman siege of Jerusalem. When the temple was torn down, and Jesus' statement: 'But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. (Mat 24:2)
One stone was not left on another after that siege. And their prayers were answered 'And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on a sabbath:' (Mat 24:20)
because, as I understand it, it was neither in the winter, nor on the Sabbath.
Yes, Paul preached on the Sabbath to the Jews, but here are some other things to keep in mind:
Acts 17:17 So he reasoned in the synagogue with Jews and the devout persons, and in the marketplace every day with them that met him.
Acts 17:19 And they took hold of him, and brought him unto the Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new teaching is, which is spoken by thee?
Act 20:20 how I shrank not from declaring unto you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly, and from house to house,
--In these instances the Synagogue is mentioned, marketplace is mentioned, house to house is mentioned, and daily is mentioned. I have the idea that Paul preached the gospel of Christ everywhere he could, whenever he could, and to whomever he could. Deboraw
josiah:
Mark 16:15-16: Those whom God calls, who hear and are able to understand, but refuse to believe the gospel will be condemned, or as the definition of the Greek work for "condemned" is given in Strong's Enhanced Lexicon, judged worthy of punishment. This does not apply to the billions in history who have never heard the true gospel, such as billions of Chinese today or millions who lived and died in the world before Jesus was even born. It also does not apply to those whose minds are blinded and are not able to understand it UNTIL their time comes to be given the understanding. God is fair and does not hold us responsible for what we not able to do. Christ said that no man CAN come to Him unless the Father draws him. God is not so unfair as to condemn a person to the lake of fire for not doing what he CANNOT do. But eventually, everyone will be given a chance, if not in this life, then in the resurrection to physical life in the white throne judgment, and WHEN a person understands, then he will be held responsible. So if a person is not able to know and understand the gospel in this life, he will not be held responsible until the white throne judgement. At that time his understanding will be opened, and if he still rejects the gospel, he will indeed be condemned to the lake of fire.
We are responsible for what we know and are able to do at the time we are able to know and do it (Luke 12:47-48). Every person will be given the opportunity to hear and understand the true gospel, and at that time will be held fully accountable for his or her decision to believe it or reject it. Those who are given the understanding in this life, if they reject it now, will be condemned. Those who are given the understanding in the white throne judgement or the millenium, if they reject it then, will be condemned. Those who believe and obey the gospel will be saved.
Everybody gets one chance to hear and understand the gospel and make a decision. For the few, that chance comes in this life. For the majority, it will come in the millenium or the white throne judgment. It all depends on when God calls a person, now or later. But when that time comes, each person's fate is determined by that person's own decision, not by circumstances of birth or other factors over which a person has no control.
What do you think? That God has condemned billions of people who have never heard and understood the true gospel through no fault of their own? How can you reconcile that with the scripture in John's epistle that says that God is love? Or do you think somehow they will be saved apart from the true gospel? How can you reconcile that with scriptures that say that only through Christ can we be saved?
We have to believe the gospel to be saved. There is no other way. Millions have never heard that gospel because of circumstances of birth. God is love. God has given scriptures that show that there is a way for those who never heard and understood the gospel in this life to be saved, that is, the white throne judgment. I don't know any other way to reconcile these fundamental principles.
Matthew 28:19-20: I see no conflict with what I have said. If you do, please explain. The Church is to preach the gospel to the world and reach as many people as possible. Those who hear and are called by God will make their choice, and if they believe and obey the gospel, they will be saved. Those who are not called by God and remained deceived by Satan CANNOT come to Christ because the Father is not calling them at this time. Their understanding will be opened in the white throne judgment if they are dead, or the millenium if they live into that time, and they will make their decision then.
I explain this in more detail and give scriptural proof in my blog post
A Stumbling Block - The Fate of the Billions Who Never Heard of Christ.
II Thessalonians 2:14: Those Paul is addressing are in the Church, and God has called them, opened their minds, and the Father has drawn them to Christ, and they were therefore able to understand and believe the gospel when it was preached to them. The majority of mankind has not been called at this time. There are many more that Paul spoke to who did not accept the gospel, and only God knows which ones are blinded and which ones He has called but freely chose to reject the gospel. Those who are blinded will have their chance in the white throne judgement.
Acts 17:30: Truly God does command men to repent, and we will be judged when we hear and are able to understand and respond. But if you think this means that every human was commanded by God at the time Paul spoke, were there not millions of Chinese, Japanese, Africans, those in India, etc. who never heard Paul's message? The command applies to them when they hear it, and they will hear it in the white throne judgment. Or, if you say they heard it in Paul's day, how? How did God command the Chinese to repent and believe the gospel in Paul's day? Do you have a different explanation?
Matthew 11:28: Jesus spoke to the crowds, and He spoke the truth. The call goes out. But only those individuals in the crowds who were able to come to Christ because God the Father had called them and was drawing them were able to come to Christ (John 6:44). The rest will have their minds opened in the white throne judgment.
Deboraw:
Good point! I think you are correct, that Paul took advantage of every opportunity to preach the gospel.
Author: My purpose in asking you to reconcile the verses with your interpretation of John 6:43-44 was to help you learn on your own that your interpretation was faulty. Here is why. God (Jesus) commanded that we preach the gospel to all people. Paul then tells us that it is the gospel that calls us (II Thessalonians 2:14). There is no indication of God opening the mind in any other way! Acts 17:30 lets us know that God requires repentance of all people in any place and time not just a certain few who are ready to hear. Matthew 11:28-30 Jesus himself invites all to come to him. Since as you have pointed out He speaks what God the father has given Him then God draws all who would hear to Jesus.
The following is taken directly from your comment. "This does not apply to the billions in history who have never heard the true gospel, such as billions of Chinese today or millions who lived and died in the world before Jesus was even born. It also does not apply to those whose minds are blinded and are not able to understand it UNTIL their time comes to be given the understanding." I must ask what authority you use to support such a claim?
Then you make the following statement: "God is not so unfair as to condemn a person to the lake of fire for not doing what he CANNOT do." That sounds good however you follow that line of reasoning with the citation of Luke 12:47-48 which clearly contradicts the above assertion. Please read your scriptures carefully! The passage says that those who refuse to obey and those who were disobedient even though they did not know it would both be punished. Apparently God did not see that as unfair.
The answer as to how this could be fair is found in Romans 1:18-23.
Dear Author,
Has God not called everyone since the death and ressurrection of Jesus? Is that not why Jesus said "Go you into all the world" (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16) Was not this fulfilled in Acts 8?
You say that some have not heard by nature of their birth and thus, God would not be fair in condemning them. You are correct. God would not be fair. But then the word fair is NEVER applied to God. God is JUST. Fairness is a human concept based upon our emotions. Being just, God condemns the world because of their sin (Romans 3:23). Being Just, God offers the gospel to all(Romans 6:23). Being just, God does not raise nor lower the standard or requirements for salvation rather leaves it as He set it: to wit - it is whether a person is in Christ or not that determines where that individual ends up at that judgement (II Thessalonians 1:7-9; Acts 17:30-31; II Timothy 4:1). Your argument that because they haven't heard, God is going to give them a second life on earth and a second chance to hear the word is not born out in Scripture otherwise, would there be that Scripture in your answer. We are told that there are 2 deaths: the first being our physical (I Corinthians 15), after that; the second which is the judgement (Revelation 20:14; 21:8).
I feel it to be equally important to note Paul's discourse in Romans 1:18-32. Paul notes that God has shown Himself to all creation through that very creation. Therefore they are without excuse. At the end of this discourse, Paul shows that whether a person knows God or not, his sinful actions make him worthy of death. This is what necessitated the plan of redemption.
Christian
Josiah:
You said, "Paul then tells us that it is the gospel that calls us (II Thessalonians 2:14)" II Thessalonians 2:14 says, "...to which He called you by our gospel..." It is God who calls BY the gospel. But is it only by the gospel that He calls us? The gospel is always necessary. There is no calling of a person apart from the gospel. But in this age of Satan's deception, something else is needed in addition to the gospel.
Is there something else needed for a person to be able to respond the gospel, for that person to be truly and completely called? You say, "it is the gospel that calls us (II Thessalonians 2:14). There is no indication of God opening the mind in any other way!" But Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, "But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them." The veil must be removed before a person can understand, believe, and obey the gospel. God has to remove the veil, that is, open a person's mind. It is a spiritual thing. Satan has blinded this world so that it cannot understand the truth.
Is it every person's completely free choice to believe the gospel when he hears it and repent? No. Repentance is a gift from God, and He does not give it to everyone who hears the gospel in this age. Notice 2 Timothy 2:24-26. Paul is talking about someone who has heard the gospel (because they are in opposition to it), saying that God may grant (give) the gift of repentance so that they MAY know the truth.
God certainly commands repentance. God commanded Pharoah to let Israel go, but Pharoah was not able to obey that command until the death of the firstborn because God had hardened his heart to that time (Exodus 4:21-23). This shows that though God gives the command, He sometimes delays giving the ability to obey it. Eventually, Pharoah let the people go, but not until it was God's time for him to do it.
God commands repentance, and everyone will have a time when they are able to obey that command, not not always in this age. In this age, the veil is removed for only a few.
Christ preached gospel to thousands, but at in the beginning of Acts only 120 were His disciples.
After quoting my statement that the billions who never heard the true gospel and the millions more whose minds are blinded to it are not condemned to the lake of fire, you ask by what authority I support this. Here it is. God is not unjust (Hebrews 6:10). Those who have never heard the gospel, and those who could never understand it, cannot be saved by the gospel until they hear and understand it. Jesus said that those who do not know God's will but do things worthy of punishment will receive "few stripes" (there is no way the lake of fire can be called "few stripes") - Luke 12:48. God has provided a way for those who have died without hearing and being able to respond to the gospel to be given a chance, in a future resurrection, to be converted and have God's Holy Spirit and not be condemned (Ezekiel 37:12-14). Ezekiel 37 proves that a man can live to the end of this physical life, not be converted, die, and yet be saved and receive God's Holy Spirit in a future resurrection.
God did not give ancient Israel the spiritual perception to hear and understand His instructions and obey. Their hearts and minds were blinded, hardened, by Satan who decieves the whole world (Deuteronomy 29:4). Was that because they did not hear the gospel? No. They heard the gospel, like millions today, but they were still blinded (Hebrews 4:1-2). I don't say they heard every detail we hear today. But God calls what they heard, "the gospel".
What did Jesus mean when He said that no man could come to him except the Father draw him? If it was through the preaching of the gospel only that the Father draws men to Christ, there would be no need for Jesus to say anything because of course no one can come to Christ without the gospel. We wouldn't know about Christ without the gospel. Jesus was talking about something more.
In the second to your last paragraph you say that Luke 12:47-48 contradicts my assertion that God will not condemn to the lake of fire those who are not able to know and understand. No, it confirms it. Few stripes cannot be the lake of fire. The second death in the lake of fire is the worst punishment that can be inflicted on a person. That is the maximum punishment, not "few stripes".
Romans 1:18-23. Certainly there is God's wrath over mankind for the sins of man. We are all guilty. Some of the punishment of that wrath is explained in Romans 1:24-32. This passage starts out, "therefore..." Therefore means "because of". It is because of God's wrath against mankind as explained in verses 18-23 that the punishment described in verses 23-32 comes upon them. And I have no doubt there are other punishments coming upon man. But I don't see the lake of fire mentioned here. That is because God in His mercy has provided a way for man's sins to be atoned for by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ so we don't have to die the second death in the lake of fire, the ultimate punishment. And every human who has ever lived will have an opportunity for that forgiveness.
Christ died for all mankind, not just for those who have lived in the first century and later and lived in a country where they could hear the gospel preached to them.
Tell me what you think is the fate of the billions who never heard of Jesus Christ. You have never answered that question. Are they condemned to the lake of fire, yes or no? What do you say?
Christian: "Has God not called everyone since the death and ressurrection of Jesus?" Absolutely not, no way! Billions in China and India never heard the true gospel. The Chinese goverment actively surpresses Christianity. Even if you can reach some Chinese today, what about those that lived 1,000 years ago, or lived in China or India in 200 A.D.? What about the millions of American indians in the Western hemisphere who never heard of Christ since the death of Jesus until the coming of the Europeans. Literally billions have lived since the since the death and resurrection of Jesus who never even heard the name of Jesus Christ. And believing in Jesus Christ is a requirement for salvation.
"Your argument that because they haven't heard, God is going to give them a second life on earth and a second chance to hear the word is not born out in Scripture otherwise, would there be that Scripture in your answer." See Ezekiel 37:1-14, Acts 10:34-36, Revelation 20:11-12. Ezekiel 37:1-14 shows that God is going to give ancient Israelites a second life on earth and a chance to receive the gift of God's Holy Spirit. Acts 10:34-36 shows God does not show partiality based on nationality, so what God will do for Israel in Ezekiel 37:1-14 He will do for all nations. Revelation 20:11-12 shows the timing of this event and shows that the book of life will be open and people's names can be written in them. I am not making this stuff up.
"God is JUST". Consider James 2:13. If it were only a matter of justice, we would all go into the lake of fire. That is the whole lesson of the sacrifice of Christ. We all deserve to be condemned. That is just. But it is not mercy.
I am a sinner in need of mercy. If God were only just, I would get what I deserve, the lake of fire. But as James said, mercy triumphs over judgment. God is not only just towards me, but merciful also, and has given me the opportunity to hear and believe the gospel and to repent, so the blood of Jesus Christ can cover my sins so I can be forgiven. I now trust and rely on God's mercy, and the longer I live, the more I know I need his mercy and trust Him for mercy and forgiveness. But that is only possible for me because I have heard the gospel. Now, if God loves me enough to offer me that mercy through the gospel which was preached to me and I believed, why would God not show that same love and mercy to the billions who never heard of Christ by raising them up to life again exactly as He says in Ezekiel 37 and having the gospel preached to them just as it was to me so they can have the same chance for mercy as I have had?
What makes you so sure that God will not raise the dead back to life and preach the gospel to them so they can be saved?
Dear Author,
I think I asked too many questions at one time, so let me back up and devote time to each question seperately.
Has God not called everyone since the death and ressurrection of Jesus Christ? You answered "Absolutely not, no way!"
Clarification question:
Why has God not called everyone and how does God call a person?
Christian
Christian:
Thank you for the follow up. I will keep my reply shorter this time (I apologize if I was too wordy before), then if you need clarification or supporting scriptures you can ask and I can get them for you. I won't look up every scripture because some of them you already know, and some of the points I make you may already agree with. But let me know what you need proof for.
1) Satan is the prince of the power of the air. He is king over this earth at this time. He deceives all nations and blinds mens minds. He does this through spiritually influencing mens minds, tempting them, leading them into error and sin. The whole world is deceived that way and cannot know the truth unless God intervenes and reveals it.
2) The term "call" can be used different ways and can mean different things, depending on the context, just like the word "law". There is a sense in which the "call" goes out to everyone who hears the message, whether they understand it or not. But when I use the word "call", I am referring to the following process, which is necessary for a person to become a true Christian and receive God's Holy Spirit, which is required for salvation:
a) The person must hear the gospel preached to him.
b) God must supernaturally intervene with His Holy Spirit to open that person's mind to be able to understand and accept the truth, otherwise, that person will continue to be deceived by Satan and cannot know the truth. God must do this so the person is able to understand and believe the gospel and to repent of sin, the two conditions for salvation.
3) This is how God calls a person. Then the person must of his own free will choose to believe the gospel and repent. If he chooses not to do this, he has rejected God's calling. He has had his one chance for salvation and rejected it.
4) When a person hears the gospel, God opens his mind to understand it, and he believes and repents, God can give the person His Holy Spirit to dwell in his mind and that person becomes a Christian. Then, provided the person continues to obey God and does not turn away from the truth in this life, he will live a life of obedience in faith and overcoming and enduring to the end, and when Christ returns he will be in the first resurrection and be raised to immortality. At that point, his salvation is complete. He will be with Christ forever.
5) In this age of man, while Satan is deceiving the world, God only calls a few this way compared to the entire population of the world. Probably fewer than 10% of all humans who have been born on the earth have ever had the true gospel preached to them. Of those, most are still blinded even after they hear it and cannot understand it, believe it, and repent.
You ask, why has God not called everyone.
When you ask why God does this or that, I have to be careful how I answer because I do not necessarily know why God does everything that He does. There are clues for some of His reasons in the Bible, and some may be discerned based on Biblical principles, but I certainly cannot explain why God does everything He has done. Many of His decisions I do not understand, but I trust Him that His decisions are always based on wisdom and love. Also, even if I might correctly understand some of His reasons, that doesn't mean I know all of them. God may have ten reasons for doing a certain thing and I may only correctly discern one or two of them.
That being said, I will tell you my understanding of why God has done things this way. Some of this I can back with scripture, but I don't know what you already know and believe, so let me know what you need proof on, and for those points I have scriptures I will give them to you.
6) When Adam chose to turn from God's standards and make up his own standards to follow, the world as a whole began to be cut off from God and to be under the influence of Satan. God allowed this for a purpose. God wants the human race to learn lessons, that Satan's ways are wrong and harmful and lead to suffering and death, and that man, apart from God, is incapable of correctly determining right from wrong and doing what is right, and that man's ways apart from God lead to bad results. That is why there is so much suffering in this world, and that suffering and death will increase to a climax at the end of this age, as described in the book of Revelation.
7) God's plan is for Christ to return, put Satan away in a condition of restraint so he can no longer deceive and tempt mankind, and then Christ will rule the earth for 1,000 years. This will occur in the near future, at the end of about 6,000 years since Adam. During the 1,000 years of Christ's rule, mankind will experience peace and prosperity and happiness, as described in many prophecies in the Old Testament.
8) At the end of the 1,000 years of Christ's rule over the earth, there will be a general resurrection of mankind back to physical life. Satan will no longer be around to deceive man, and Christ will be on earth to rule and teach them. It is at that time that the billions on earth who never heard the gospel, or heard and were not able to understand because Satan blinded their minds, will for the first time hear the gospel preached to them and be able to understand it. Each person can then make his or her own free choice to believe and repent, or not. Those who believe and repent will be saved and those who do not will not be saved. But they will have the advantage of being able to look back at their past lives and compare living in Satan's present world of sin and suffering with a world of happiness living God's way under the rule of Christ. They will be able to look at the history man for 6,000 years, some of it they lived through, and compare it with the history of the 1,000 years of Christ's rule and the new life they are living God's way, and that will provide a lesson for them. They can see that God's way is better.
9) The whole 7,000 year plan of God is a demonstration that God's way is better than Satan's. It will help those who are raised in the general resurrection to make the right choice.
10) This is why God is not calling the majority now and why God is not trying to save the whole world now. He wants to let this world as a whole, except for a few, remain unconverted and living Satan's way so there can be an object lesson of the suffering that results from it for 6,000 years.
11) The weekly cycle of six days when man does his work and a seventh day of rest when man draws closer to God in prayer, Bible study, instruction, and fellowship, in an atmosphere of peaceful rest from the burdens of working during the week, is a pattern for God's 7,000 year plan for mankind.
12) It is God's will that Christ will not rule alone after He returns, but will rule with the saints. So for that purpose, a small number are called and converted during the six thousand years so that they can be raised in a resurrection to immortality when Christ returns and fulfill offices of rularship under Christ. David will be king over Israel. The twelve apostles will rule over the twelve tribes. Some of the saints will rule over one city, some over ten cities, etc. Christ will be king of kings over the whole earth.
13) God calls a person by having the gospel preached to them and by opening his mind so that he can understand and believe the gospel. He has not called everyone now during the 6,000 years of man because this is the time for the world as a whole to be unconverted and carnal so that the lesson can be written in human history that Satan's way does not work. But God in His love, wisdom, and fairness (and there is a scripture in the Bible where God does say that He is "fair") will provide the same opportunity for everyone to hear the gospel and be able to understand and believe it and be saved, either in this age or the age to come.
If there are points in the above that you need scriptures on or have questions about, let's take them one or a couple of points at a time, not too much, as you suggested. I will look up the scriptures and give them to you and answer your questions the best I can.
And if you can show me where I am wrong, I will try to study the scriptures with an open mind, to see if I made a mistake, and I am determined to change anything I believe when I see I am wrong.
Dear Author,
You and I are a lot alike in our shortness I see. LOL.
If you and I are to continue with this discussion, let us agree on these two points:
1.) That the Scriptures are the Word of God (II Timothy 3:16-17) and thus are the begining and ending of any discussion (II Peter 1:1-4). If either of our points have not the Scriptures in their context listed, they will be discounted as invalid.
2.) That we read and study with a mind open to the Scriptures and not either of our personal conceptions. If we read and study the Scriptures desiring only to justify our own position, we shall surely be justified but only at the cost of potentially losing our soul being like the people Isaiah (Isaiah 6:9-10) prophesied about, Jesus declared (Matthew 13:12-17), and Paul warned about (Acts 28:22-29).
If we can not agree to study with an open mind, allowing the Scriptures to define the way we think, there then is no point to continue for we will not be receptive to the truth.
Having your agreement, I will then continue otherwise I shall not.
Christian
Excuse me! Excuse me! Something else is needed? Something besides what is revealed in the scriptures? Paul (his name used to be Saul too) said by inspiration that God calls us through the gospel. Hmmm, he must not have been inspired enough to know that it was not enough.
I think this roving reporter will take a trip back in history to see if he can find if anything else is needed.
Excuse me, what is your name? "They call me Cain." Oh I have heard of you, seems your offering wasn't what God had expected of you. "Yeah, I found out the hard way that you can't squeeze blood out of a turnip." Had God told you what He expected? "Sure, but I thought I needed something more."
Here are a couple of guys, please tell us your names. "We are Nadab and Abihu." Yes I remember, you served at the altar. What lessons did you learn? "We learned 2 things, God means what He says and says what He means and if you play with fire you are going to get burned."
Over here we have a well known old timer. What is your name sir? "Moses". What lesson would you like to share with us today? "Do you remember when the people were thirsty and complained about it? Well God told Aaron and me exactly what we were to do for the people. I thought surely I needed to do more than just speak to the rock to get water to come forth so in my frustration I struck the rock instead. God was faithful and brought forth water." Were there consequences for you? "Yes of course, I was not allowed into the promised land." That seems a little harsh. "No, it was only just and right, I went beyond what was given."
There you have it folks, three events where God told them everything they needed to know and they thought it was not really enough but it was.
Dear Saul;
Just a note to say: "Hello again, Long time no see. But then with that long trip back in history, I can see why."
Christian
Christian,
Ok, your blog, your rules. I agree to follow your two points, for this discussion.
But in addition to your two rules, it will help make our discussion more productive and efficient if we answer the replies given by the other point-by-point, scripture-by-scripture, before introducing new questions. Also, be aware that when you ask why God does one thing or another, I may not have a proof text from scripture because God does not always reveal his reasons, so in order to follow your rules, I may have to decline to answer certain "why"s. Also, asking something like "why would animal sacrifices be necessary?" does not prove that they will not take place.
Also, keep in mind that if you ask a very general question, that is, a question whose answer will contain many subpoints, such as "how does God call a person?" or "why doesn't God call everyone now?", you may wait a long time for a reply. I remember scriptures I have read, but not by book, chapter, and verse, so I have to find them. If I have to look up and find 50 scriptures to prove my subpoints in answering your question, not knowing what subpoints you already agree with, you may have to wait a few weeks for an answer.
So I agree to your rules. If I have anything to say that does not follow these rules, I will keep it in my own blog and not try to put it in yours.
I would like to start with a question about a particular passage, and you can answer with scripture. Does Ezekiel 37:1-14 indicate that God will resurrection ancient Israelites who lived before Christ back to a second physical life on this earth and give them the opportunity to be saved? I say yes, based on the following scriptures: The dry bones Ezekiel sees are the whole house of Israel (Ezekiel 37:11), so this would include the men of ancient Israel who lived in Ezekiel's time and before, since they are part of the "whole" house of Israel. These people are brought back to physical life because muscle tissue is put upon the bones and breath must enter their bodies in order for them to live, according to Ezekiel 37:4-10. These are people who have died in the past and will come up out of their graves, according to Ezekiel 37:12-13. And God says He will put His Spirit in them, showing they can become converted and receive salvation (Ezekiel 37:14) because it is the Spirit of God that makes one belong to Christ (Romans 8:9, Acts 2:1-4, Acts 2:38).
What do you say?
Author: thank you for correcting my phraseology. II Thessalonians 2:14 does indeed indicate that God calls us by or through the gospel. And that is exactly my point! There is no indication by Paul of anything else being needed, only the gospel of Christ. I think you would agree that those in the first century were also subject to Satan's deception as we are. Yet Paul reminds them that the gospel was what God used to call them.
You then offer II Corinthians 4:3-4 to support your claim of God supernaturally opening our minds. This passage asserts that IF the gospel is veiled (concealed, hidden) it is such only to those that are lost! (see KJV)It is then explained who does the veiling, "the god of this world". Inherent in your declaration that God must open their minds are two things. 1. God is a respecter of persons for he opens some and not others, and 2. the word of God is powerless! Yet the scriptures clearly teach that God is no respecter of persons ( Romans 2:11, I Peter 1:17) and that the word of God is extremely powerful (Hebrews 4:12). The word of God was sharp (powerful) enough to "prick" the hearts of those 3000 on Pentecost who heard the gospel presented by the 12 (Acts 2:37). These were those who had only recently consented to crucifying the Christ! The word pierced the veil! The scripture says "when they heard this" it doesn't say, "when God opened their hearts". Romans 10:17 clearly states that faith comes by hearing the word of God! Let us not limit its power to convict men of their sin by saying that God has to open their hearts first.
Josiah:
You don't always get all the requirements for a thing in one scripture. You have to put all the scriptures together for a subject. For example, you can find verses that say that if you believe in Christ, you will be saved (John 6:47, Acts 16:29-32). But that is not the whole requirement, because you can find other verses that say you have to repent to be saved (Acts 2:38-39, 2 Peter 3:9). You have to put all these verses together to understand that the requirements for salvation include both believing in Christ and repentance. One by itself is not sufficient. You need both.
Likewise, when you find a verse that shows that it is by hearing the gospel that one is called (2 Thessalonians 2:14), and nothing else is mentioned in that verse, that does not mean that hearing the gospel is the only thing that is required. Certainly hearing the gospel is required, but you have to look at other verses also, and other verses show that Satan deceives everyone unless God opens the mind to understand the gospel. You have to see the whole pattern.
In Old Testament times, the people's minds were blinded, and that was God's choice because He did not open their minds to understand (Deuteronomy 29:4). It wasn't because the gospel was not preached to them, because the writer of Hebrews says that the gospel was preached to them as well as to us (Hebrews 4:1-2). But they did not receive the gospel in an attitude of belief. Satan has deceived the whole world since the time of Adam till now (Revelation 12:9). He injects his evil nature into the minds of men (Ephesians 2:1-3, Jeremiah 17:9, Romans 8:7-8). God has blinded men by allowing Satan to deceive them, and unless God makes an exception with a person, that person will be deceived by Satan and cannot understand the truth (Isaiah 6:9-13), and this condition continues today. It existed in Old Testament times, it existed when Jesus was on earth (Matthew 15:13-14, Matthew 23:16-22, John 12:37-41, Matthew 13:18-19), and it existed after Jesus died and was resurrected (Romans 11:7-12, 2 Corinthians 3:12-16, 2 Corinthians 4:3-4, Ephesians 4:17-24). That general condition of blindness that is upon all humanity that prevents men from understanding the gospel when it is preached to them will only be removed when God removes the veil by putting away Satan who deceives men (Revelation 20:1-4, Isaiah 25:7). This will not happen till the end of this age (Revelation 20:1-4) when cities have been laid waste (Isaiah 6:9-13). But God opens the minds of a few (the elect) to understand the gospel when it is preached to them (Romans 11:7-12) and to grant repentance (2 Timothy 2:24-26). He does this by His Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:6-16) which works WITH a person when they are learning about the gospel (John 14:16-17, Matthew 16:13-17) and dwells IN a person after conversion (Acts 2:1, Acts 2:38-39, Romans 8:9). This is why Jesus said that no man could come to Him unless the Father draws him (John 6:43-44). Even though mankind is blinded now, God intends to have mercy on all (Romans 11:25-36, 2 Peter 3:9).
But even if you are right and everyone is able to understand the gospel when they hear it, that doesn't change my main point that most people have never heard the gospel and never had the opportunity to learn about Christ and be forgiven in this life. You have to look at history and current events to know that millions in China and India have never heard the gospel preached to them. Likewise, the common people in Iran and many other countries never hear the gospel because the government doesn't allow it. Also, the American Indians never heard the gospel until the coming of the Europeans more than a thousand years after the death of Jesus Christ. There are many such examples, not to mention the millions who lived from the time of Adam till the birth of Christ all over the world. What is the fate of these people?
The scriptures seem to be consistant that faith in Christ is a requirement for forgiveness and salvation (John 6:47, Acts 16:29-32). If I am wrong and you believe differently, please show me that it is possible to be forgiven and saved without knowing about Christ. If this is true, then I must be missing something.
So the dilema is, how can these millions of people be saved since they never had the chance to learn about Jesus Christ? Ezekiel 37 provides an answer, as does Revelation 20. Bring these people back to life and preach the gospel to them, and save those who believe at a time when Satan is put away and can no longer deceive them. That would be consistant with what the Bible teaches about God's love. It is an answer that makes sense to me, but if you think it doesn't make sense, or if you can disprove it by scripture, show me.
And if this is the only age when men can be saved, why would God, who is all-powerful, not make sure that everyone in every nation hears the gospel? God could intervene to stop governments such as the Iranian government and the Chinese government from impeding the gospel. Why doesn't He if this life is the only chance these people get?
II Corinthians 4:3-4 in the King James Version says "lost". In the New King James Version it says "perishing". One is correct. Someone who is in the process of perishing can still be saved, because perishing is a process that can be interrupted. A drowning man can be saved before he dies. This whole world is in the process of perishing, but can still be saved by God. I am no expert in Greek, but the way the New King James translators render it is more consistant with the scriptures I have already quoted.
God is not a respector of persons in regards to who is saved or who is lost, but he does choose individuals for particular roles (Matthew 20:20-24), and He chooses when He will deal with a person, in this age or in the age to come (Romans 11:25-27). In the general resurrection (Ezekiel 37:1-14, Revelation 20:11-15), Satan will no longer be around (Revelation 20:1-3, 7-10), and everyone will be given a chance for salvation who never had it before.
Author: you are correct in saying that on some subjects you must take into consideration multiple verses to get the complete picture. You use salvation as an example, it is a good one. Mentioned are belief and repentance. But in this comment and earlier ones you have called our attention to verses which mention baptism but never pointed that out. Does that mean you don't believe it is necessary for salvation? I am not wanting to introduce another subject at this time so a simple yes or no will be sufficient.
Yes you have to look at the whole pattern. The pattern which God has given on coming to Jesus begins with God calling us though the Gospel (II Thessalonians 2:14). No other scripture teaches that we are called by any other means!
We have already agreed that satan deceives men, he has since the woman in the garden. However, while God allows this to occur, He in no way causes it to occur. His justice will not allow it. As Christian has pointed out in his blog, man was created a free moral agent. That is, given the ability and responsibility to choose. Eve chose to be deceived by listening to the serpent.
Not everyone who hears the gospel will believe. But it is not because God has not lifted the veil, but rather because they choose to follow satan.
Your main point about the millions or billions who have never heard is still faulty. Both Christian and I have called your attention to two passages that clearly refute it. Romans 1:18ff was cited but you glossed over the part that was pertinent to our discussion. Verses 18-23, especially 19-21, show that God has revealed himself to all men by his creation. In other words, by viewing the creation all men know that there is a supreme being even if they choose not to acknowledge Him. He then goes on to describe how some respond. With such being the case God is just in punishing the unbeliever who, having seen God's handiwork chooses not to believe and obey.
Secondly, II Thessalonians 1:7-9. This passage plainly states that He will come, rendering vengeance on those who know not God and obey not the gospel. You object by asking how can a God of love do such a thing. The answer is twofold. Romans 1:20 says He manifested himself unto them by the things which He created, therefore they are without excuse and He is just to destroy them. Secondly the love of God probably is not the same as what you are thinking.
So two questions as I close. How do you define/understand the love of God? and What system of hermeneutics do you use?
Baptism is commanded by God, and there is no promise of the Holy Spirit without baptism. So generally, yes, baptism is required. Perhaps God might make an exception in special cases for someone who has faith and has repented and is willing to obey God's command for baptism, but physically cannot do it, such as someone in prison in a country that does not allow it, or some other unusual circumstances. Cornelius received the Holy Spirit before he was baptized, but he was baptized right after. So the general answer is yes, God requires baptism.
Romans 1:18-23 - This is clearly speaking of those who believe there is no God or doubt the existance of God (atheists and agnostics) and those who worship idols, that is images. They are guilty before God, without excuse, and under God's wrath, because they can know from the creation that the real God exists. But consider a couple of points. If someone, perhaps in China or in a country that teaches atheism and does not allow Christian preaching, looks at creation and says, "there must be a God", are tries his best to give thanks to God in prayer and to live a good life as best he knows how, but never heard of Jesus Christ dying to pay the penalty of our sins and therefore cannot have faith in Christ, is he saved? Will God accept him into His kingdom without that man first learning about Christ and having faith in the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of his sins? If not, then how can he be saved without the resurrection described in Ezekiel 37?
Second, Romans 1:18-23 simply shows that those who have sinned and have not repented have no excuse and are under wrath. We are all in that catagory until we repent, accept Christ in faith, and are forgiven by God. We all deserve to die. We are all without excuse. This is exacly why Christ had to pay the penalty for our sins in our place so we can be forgiven.
There is nothing in Romans 1:18-23 that indicates that it is God's will that these people be permanantly lost and cast into the lake of fire. God wants all men to come to repentance so none will have to finally perish (2 Peter 3:9). I am not teaching universal salvation. As you correctly point out, God will not force His salvation on anyone. But God will give people every chance and every help to finally make it. The question is how and when God will help these people to repent. That is not answered in Romans 1:18-23, but part of the answer is in Ezekiel 37, and another part is in Revelation 20.
II Thessalonians 1:7-9 describes God's vengence which begins with the return of Christ and continues until all who have finally rejected God and Christ are destroyed. Some of this occurs for those who are alive at that time and some of this vengence does not occur until after the general resurrection 1,000 years later (Revelation 20:7-15). I see no indication here that those in the general resurrection will not have time to repent. II Thessalonians 1:7-9 describes the fate of those who refuse to repent after having the opportunity to hear and understand the gospel, those in this life who have rejected that opportunity, and those who have not had the opportunity in this life but will have it in the general resurrection and still refuse to repent.
The love of God does not accept those who refuse to repent, but offers forgiveness to those who deserve to die for their sins, yet are willing to repent (Ezekiel 18:21-30). God will not force His salvation on anyone, and some will reject that salvation (Matthew 8:11-12). But it is part of God's love to give everyone every help and opportunity to repent so they do not have to go into the lake of fire (2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:3-4). That opportunity includes those in the general resurrection as described in Ezekiel 37:1-14 and Revelation 20:11-12.
Josiah and Christian, if you were born and raised in China in a place and at a time where you could not hear the gospel, and never had the opportunity to believe in Jesus Christ and be baptized, would you not want God to have mercy on you in the general resurrection and preach the gospel to you so you could repent and be baptized and be saved? Or would you want to receive destruction according to the terms of II Thessalonians 1:7-9? Would you want II Thessalonians 1:7-9 to apply to you, or Ezekiel 37:1-14?
I looked up "hermeneutics" in Google and found this definition from Wikipedia: "Hermeneutics may be described as the development and study of theories of the interpretation and understanding of texts. In contemporary usage in religious studies, hermeneutics refers to the study of the interpretation of religious texts."
I have not studied men's theories of the interpretations of religious texts, known as "hermeneutics". I have studied the Bible, and based on God's own words inspired in the Bible, I found these principles to be useful: All scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and God cannot lie (Titus 1:2, Numbers 23:19, Hebrews 6:17-18) and scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). We are required by God to have deep respect for His Word (Isaiah 66:2). God counted Abraham's belief as righteousness, so I always strive to believe what God says in the Bible (Romans 4:3, James 2:23, Genesis 15:3-6), following the example of Abraham (Isaiah 51:1-2). Therefore I believe what God inspired Ezekiel to write in Ezekiel 37:1-14, that God will give ancient Israelites a second physical life and will give them His Holy Spirit. I believe God gives understanding to those who strive to obey His commandments (Psalm 111:10), so I try to apply in my life the things I learn from the Bible. I look at the context of scriptures, and I also try to get all the scriptures on a particular subject and put them together. And when I find scriptures that are not clear or are hard to understand, I let clear scriptures interpret unclear ones.
There are really two separate issues in this discussion thread that have been mixed together. One is the question of whether God has to open a person's mind before he can understand the gospel. I say yes, you say no. But there is another issue, and that is, will God give people who never even heard the gospel in this life a chance to hear and believe it in a second life so they can be saved? Or can they be saved without hearing the gospel?
I am not sure of your position on this last question, can they be saved without hearing the gospel?
Author: as you know "Wikipedia" is an interactive resource and can be edited by anyone. Therefore it is not always the most reliable source of information. Mirriam-Websters online dictionary defines hermeneutics this way: "1.plural but sing or plural in constr : the study of the methodological principles of interpretation (as of the Bible)2: a method or principle of interpretation". By this definition, which is the way I understand the term, it is the method or principle of interpretation. It is not the study of other men's theories of what the scriptures teach. Whether we like the term or not each of us has an hermeneutic, principle by which we interpret, (understand) the scriptures.
A persons hermeneutic determines if we understand the scriptures as strictly literal, totally figurative, or a mix and how we determine which is which. It also involves understanding figures of speech used in the scriptures.
With this in mind, what then is your hermeneutic?
Josiah, (and author) For instance: Luke 13:31 "In that very hour there came certain Pharisees, saying to him, Get thee out, and go hence: for Herod would fain kill thee.
Luk 13:32 And he said unto them, Go and say to that fox, Behold, I cast out demons and perform..."
The above incident includes the Pharisees telling Jesus about Herod. No one would quibble that the Pharisees, Jesus, and Herod are literal, but is Herod really a fox? No, that is a comparison. Herod is likened to a 'fox'. Hermeneutics is what gives us the 'rules' or principles as how to correctly understand something, whether the scriptures or poetry, or?
A point that 'author' has missed is that he assumes that the gospel of Christ has not been (and was not) preached to the 'whole world'. Shame on him! We have a partial record of where the apostles HAVE preached and that was amazing, for just the twelve. Do not forget there were many more than the apostles, and they went everywhere. I have even read of ancient Indians in, I believe it was South America, who were looking for a promised redeemer. For another example, what about the Ethiopian eunuch? He went back home to...Ethiopia. Do you think he didn't teach others?
2Corinthians 6:2 (for he saith, At an acceptable time I hearkened unto thee, And in a day of salvation did I succor thee: behold, now is the acceptable time; behold, now is the day of salvation):
Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Matthew 7:8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
For those who are truly seeking, God will provide the preacher/teacher. Those who are not looking wouldn't find it even if it were laying all around them (as those in America today).
I have heard amazing stories such as the missionary traveling in Russia many years ago. He was traveling on a train and as the soldiers were systematically searching everyone's baggage for Bibles he had no choice but to throw his well worn, well marked Bible out the train window. After several years he received a package in the mail from someone he did not know. The person apologized for 'keeping the Bible so long,' but he explained, 'he had found it lying beside the tracks, and following the marked scriptures, he had come to a knowledge of the truth, been baptized, and become a follower of Jesus...'
Author's problem is 1) he is putting his faith in a scripture that has already been 'fulfilled'(Ezekiel 37), and 2)because he can't 'understand' how the gospel could have been preached to the whole world, he therefore doesn't have complete faith in God (who would have made sure that such a thing has been done) and author wants to 'help' God out by concocting a fabulous story of how it will be done.
Not realizing that it has been done(and Christians are continuing to make sure it is continually being done)he errs not acknowledging the power of God. 1Corinthians 2:5 that your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
Deboraw
Josiah:
Thank you for the definition and clarification. I would describe my hermeneutic as follows.
I believe that the Bible cannot contradict itself because all of it is inerrant in the original language. If there appears to be a contradiction, it is either a mistranslation or I am not understanding something in the passages that seem to contradict. I let clear passages interpret difficult or unclear passages. As far as figurative vs. literal is concerned, I understand scripture basically the same way I understand another person who is having a conversation with me and the same way I speak to others. The language is literal unless a known figure of speech is used, or if it is obvious from other passages in the Bible that a figure of speech is used. I believe God uses figures of speech when we know they are figures of speech. If there are exceptions to this rule, I believe they are rare. This is the way I speak with others. I use figures of speech others know are figures of speech and they use figures of speech in talking to me that I know are figures of speech. I would not speak figuratively to deceive another person knowing they would take me literally - I think that would be lying.
So for example, after God led Israel out of Egypt, He said to Israel, "you saw how I bore you on Eagles' wings" (Exodus 19:4). This is obviously a figure of speech, symbolic language, because the preceding account shows that Israel walked out of Egypt. You and I know this is a figure of speech and ancient Israel knew it was a figure of speech. There is absolutely no confusion. Likewise, in a the parable of the sower, the seed represents the word. There is no doubt that the "seed" is a symbol for the word because Christ explains it in Mark 4:14.
But when there is no such definite indication that something is symbolic, I take it literally. Thus, I understand the six days of creation as six 24-hour days, not indeterminant periods of time that could be millions of years. In the account of the temple towards the end of Ezekiel, I take the description of the temple, the sacrifices, the healing waters, and the allocation of the twelve tribes to their alloted areas as literal descriptions of what will take place in the future. I take the prophecy of Ezekiel 37:1-14 as a literal description of a future event. I take these passages literally simply because there are no obvious figures of speech being used and because there are no clear verses in the rest of the Bible that indicate that these passages are symbolic. God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33). He knows how to communicate. Otherwise, I could not trust the Bible because I would never know what might be symbolic.
This is the best I can explain how I understand the scriptures, but if you need more clarification about this, let me know and I will try again.
By the way, I am preparing a new post in my blog that explains why I believe God does not call everyone in this age and how God calls a person, and I am including the main scriptural references to show why I believe what I do, and I should have it posted in a few days, maybe today or tomorrow, in case you or Christian are interested.
author: If Romans 1:18-23 says that those "who believe there is no God or doubt the existance of God (atheists and agnostics) and those who worship idols, that is images" are without excuse (and it does)according to your doctrine what purpose would it serve? I am asking this: why would God take away their excuse if they were to have a second chance? Or what would be Gods purpose in taking away any excuse?
Their excuse is taken away to show their need for forgiveness that can only come by Jesus Christ paying the penalty for their sin in their place.
No excuse = guilty of sin = death penalty = Christ paid that penalty so they won't have to, IF they fulfill the conditions of the New Covenant by repenting of sin and believing in Christ when they have that opportunity.
The chance those in the general resurrection have for salvation will be their first chance, not a second chance. Those who lived and died without ever hearing the name of Christ never had a chance to be forgiven so far. They will get their one and only chance in the general resurrection.
God's way of removing our sins so we can be saved is not to make excuses for us, or to encourage us to make excuses for ourselves. God's way is to humble man, to make man realize his guilt and realize that he deserves to die, then offer the salvation that can only come from Christ through forgiveness of sins made possible because Christ suffered and died in our place. That sacrifice is God's gift to us, which we do not deserve. This is basic.
Author: I knew I was having difficulty expressing my question at the time. I apologize for this.
Romans 1:18-23 is an especially important passage in this discussion regarding the fate of those who do not believe. This passage must be interpreted in light of the truth that God is love AND He is also JUST! God's love for us is shown in the fact that He offered His only son for the sins of you and me (John 3:16). This love does not overrule, outweigh or displace the truth of His justness. (Isaiah 45:21) Justness requires that all be judged by the same standard, which is the word of God (John 12:48)
That being established we can now properly interpret Romans 1:18-23. Notice closely verses 19-21. "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened."
Please grant me the liberty to paraphrase verse 19 - "that which can be known of God has been shown unto them". Then it is explained how this is true. "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead;" The inspired apostle Paul said that they were clearly seen in the things created. What was seen in this creation, through this creation? God's everlasting power and divinity! Knowing that there is an eternal God, they are without excuse for not believing or seeking Him. So, because God has revealed himself to all people by His creation, all people have had an opportunity to seek and know Him in this life! If not why not? Matthew 7:7 applies here as does II Thessalonians 1:7-9. The scriptures do not lie nor contradict.
Josiah:
You wrote, "So, because God has revealed himself to all people by His creation, all people have had an opportunity to seek and know Him in this life!"
What of the case of someone who sees the creation, acknowledges God's existance and power, and takes advantage of every opportunity to seek and know God in this life, but never learns about Jesus Christ because he lives in a time and place where the name of Jesus Christ has never been preached to him? That man may be very sincere. But he cannot have faith in Christ and be baptized in His name during this life. How can he be saved?
Author: Did you not read the reference cited? The answer to your question lies in Matthew 7:7. Either Jesus means what He says or the whole book is a lie!
Hi Josiah,
In Matthew 7:7, Jesus was speaking to His disciples, those who already were beginning to follow Him, not to the general crowd (Matthew 5:1). The things He taught did not apply to everyone. Even so, the principles of what He taught will apply to everyone at the time that they learn about Christ and are able to believe the gospel and repent and be baptized. His teaching in Matthew 7:7 applies to Christians in this age (notice, the reason those who ask will receive is because they are the children of their Father in heaven - this does not apply to the world at large, but to those who are counted as children of God). Matthew 7:7 will apply to those who learn about Christ in the general resurrection, and it applies to Christians today.
A follow-up to my last comment. The promise that those who seek will find does not specify WHEN the seeker finds and when the asker receives. It is God's perogative to delay answering for the world at large until the general resurrection.
author: am I correct to understand that you are saying Matthew 5-7 were spoken only to the disciples and not to the multitude in general?
Josiah,
Yes, that seems to have been the situation. Matthew 5:1 says that Jesus saw the multitudes, and then he went up into the mountain. Then His disciples followed him and came close to him on the mountain. Then Jesus taught his disciples. I think the "them" in Matthew 5:2 is referring to the disciples who came near Jesus, not the multitudes. But it is also possible that some from the crowds came close to Jesus and heard what He was teaching also. But the main audience was His disciples. By "disciples" I do not mean just the twelve apostles, but those who had begun to respond to Jesus and were following him. There could have been dozens or a few hundred. On Pentecost, there were about 120 (Acts 1:15) and this was after many of His disciples had left Him when He spoke of eating His body and drinking His blood (John 6:60-66). So there could have been more than 120 disciples before that. There was a time when Christ sent out seventy to preach besides the twelve apostles (Luke 10:1). These were "disciples" but not "apostles".
Jesus did not teach everything to the multitudes. For example, he explained the parables to his disciples, but not to the crowds, because it was not given to the crowds to understand the secrets of the kingdom of God, but to the disciples it was given (Matthew 13:1-23). Notice also in Luke 6:20-49 that it was to His disciples that He taught these things, especially notice Luke 6:27 where He says that He speaks to those who hear. Compare this with Matthew 13:9, 10, 13, 14-16.
See also Luke 11:1-9. Here you have another account of Jesus teaching, "seek, and you will find" (verse 9), but the teaching was to the disciples (verse 1), not to the multitudes.
We can also get a clue when Jesus said in Matthew 5:13-16 "you are the salt of the earth" and "you are the light of the world". He would not say this to everybody in the crowds including those who were just curiosity seekers and had no intention of believing and following Christ. He was speaking to those who were starting to respond and follow.
Author: It is apparent that the Holy Spirit who inspired Matthew in recording this event did not understand the "personal" nature of this teaching as well as you do! At the conclusion of the sermon these words are recorded: "And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." (Matthew 7:28-29) Other translations use terms such as crowds, multitudes, none use the limiting term of "disciples". What part of the sermon could logically apply only to the disciples other than 5:11-16?
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