In a recent broadcast on WHO radio the host Steve Deace was condemning President Bush and the war on Iraq. He said the war was unjust and that we had no business perpetrating it. I must also point out that Deace has what he calls a "Christian world view" and has published a book, the title of which is taken from Scripture, "Without A Vision The People Perish". Now I haven't read the book. I mention it only to introduce our next topic of discussion.
As I listened to the broadcast it occurred to me that perhaps Deace had overlooked one important part of a "Biblical world view". This then brings us to our thought question. It is a three part question.
DOES GOD RULE IN THE KINGDOMS OF MEN?
IF SO, HOW?
AND HOW CAN WE KNOW?
I trust you will give careful consideration to your answers. Happy pondering.
Why Does It Matter?
-
He remembers what the squall was, but his mom and dad never even had a
clue. Not even when the event took place. There is nothing quite like the
experience...
5 years ago
15 comments:
He raises up whom He will, and puts down whom He will. Do you mean how do we know today, as in some people say floods, earthquakes, tornadoes are 'acts of God', which they can be, (but that doesn't mean God is punishing anyone) and we don't really 'know' if it's a 'judgment'. So, when one kingdom (government) rises and another falls how do we know if God causes it or not; or scripturally how can we 'prove' that God rules in the governments? We need to pray heartily for this country, and its government. That's a freebie.
Dear Josiah,
1. Yes
2. Same as He always has.
3. Compare today's governments to the ones in the Scriptures.
Christian
also one must be careful when talking about governments 2Pe. 2:10-13
Dear Anonymous,
Please explain your comment "also one must be careful when talking about governments 2Pe. 2:10-13" as I'm a little confused. Are you saying that we can not talk about governments at all? Or can we not talk about types of governments?
Christian
Christian, I think it explaines itself. 2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruptio
anonymous - we agree that the scripture explains itself and I think I understand what it says. What I don't understand is how you wish to apply it to our discussion questions. Please explain.
josiah, was just pointing out that we must make sure that we don't talk evil about the government. I used to hear people talk about the war in Irak, that it was just about money or what have you. on the political level it maybe I don't know or really care, what I do know is that it is God's will and He knows what He is doing.
Dear Anonymous:
Thank you for taking the time to explain your meaning. I would like to point out 2 things in regards to II Peter 2:10-13.
Point 1. The context of 10-13 speaks comfort to the church saying that 1. there were false prophets in history like there will be false teachers among you (2:1-3); 2. God dealt with the false prophets in history with examples of such dealings (2:4-8); 3. God knows who the false teachers are and how to deal with the false teachers today (2:9-22).
Point 2. Verse 10-13 reads about despising governments (Greek word means rulers) and speaking against (Greek word is blasphemos, or blaspheming) those who have honor/dignity (dignitaries) those which even angels (being greater in power and might) do not bring harsh accusations to the Lord. Yet the false teachers (like unreasoning wild animals born to be captured and destroyed and because of ignorance they speak evil things) will be destroyed as they destroy and will be paid their wages of wrongdoing.
All this means is that we are not to despise and blaspheme those who rule. Not that we can not speak about governments and their policies whether they be good or evil.
God indeed does know His will and how to use it. :)
Christian
Those are good points about 1) not talking ill of governments. I too have heard people say those things about Iraq, and I had never thought about it not making any difference what the reason (from our point of view) it is began for. That is an interesting point. And 2) after studying II Peter 2:10-13 it is talking about false teachers. Isn't there somewhere else that encourages us to be respectful of governments? That doesn't mean we can't talk about them, but do our best to abide in them?
christian, what does Jud 1:8 mean if it is talking about false teachers? Jud 1:8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.
I would still have to say that it is talking about more than just false teachers
Dear Anonymous,
I would like to point you to Jude 1:4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." The topic of this short book is indeed the same subject as Peter dealt with, namely False teachers.
Verses 5-7 are selected examples again of God dealing with the false teachers of history.
Verse 8 brings the reader back to the present situation of false teachers who despise (Greek word atheteo meaning to set aside, despise, neutralize, violate. translated as cast off, despise, disannul, frustrate, bring to nought,reject) rulers and their blasphemy (speak evil of) of dignity or honor.
verse 9 shows how even the heavenly messengers do not bring railing (blasphemous) accusations even against the devil but let the Lord do so.
Verses 10-16 refers back to verses 4 and 8 - the false teachers and how they are known and what they generally tend to do, and what will happen to them.
Yes this indeed talks specifically about false teachers, their actions among and toward the believers and their effects upn both the disciples and upon themselves. The context shows that the rulers mentioned are, therefore, those in authority within the church and can through the examples of Cain, Balaam, and Korah be applied to the Word of the Lord and the Lord Himself; but not specifically of earthly governments. The Bible deals with the Christian's relationship and attitude toward earthly governments like Rome and the US etc with Scriptures like Matthew 22:21 "Render therefore unto Ceasar, the things which are Ceasar's and unto God the things which are God's." and Romans 12:18 "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men."
Christian
christian, what about Sodom and gamorrha? also what governments and dignities does your church have? by the way,the devil dosen't have a church.
I would like to respond to the latest comment by anonymous in reverse order. By the way Satan does have a church. If you are interested you can research it on the web and at the library. I have attended seminars put on by law enforcement concerning this subject. What they do is so hideous that I will not speak of it here.
The church that you read of in the new Testament does indeed have dignities. They are called elders, shepherds, bishops, all referencing the same office but describing the different aspects of fulfilling the obligations of that office. See Hebrews 13:17, Acts 20:28, I Timothy 5:17 etc.
You lost me on Sodom and Gomorrah. They were destroyed because their cup of iniquity was full, there could not even be found 10 righteous ones in these cities. I guess you will have to explain this one to me as I cannot make the connection.
josiah what verse in the Bible is that found in? sodom and gamorrha was mentioned in jude.
and the governments?
Dear Anonymous,
In regards to Sodom and Gomorrah, Jude uses these two specific cities and their neighbors as examples of those who left their first estate and did evil and God dealt with them.
In regards to Satan and his church, Revelation 3:7-13 mentions the synagogue of Satan. The word Synagogue meaning, assemblage or church.
In regards to the goverments and those with honor in my church, I must thankfully praise God and say "I have no church!" I echo Paul's sentiment in I Corinthians 3. I do belong to a congregation that strives to worship and live as the NT and the NT alone dictates believing that God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (II Peter 1:3) and that no Scripture is of private interpretation (II Peter 1:17-21)which can be forced upon the believers as Paul spoke of those who depart from the faith in I Timothy 4:1-4. I must thank Josiah for his post as he has done an excellent job describing the church described in the NT which pattern the congregation I worship God with strives to follow.
Christian
Post a Comment