A rather thought provoking question come to my mind as a result of a comment about God ruling in the kingdoms of men. Here is the statement made by "anonymous" "what I do know is that it is God's will and He knows what He is doing." Let me say that the last part of the statement is a no brainer, God knows what He is doing.
The thought provoking part of the statement is "it is God's will". Is every thing that happens to us or anyone else at any given moment "God's will"? Interesting question!
This statement was made in reference to the war on Iraq in the context of God ruling in the kingdoms of men. I am unsure what the overall position of the commenter is about the statement. There are some who believe that everything that happens is God's will. So here is our question.
Is everything that happens on a daily basis "God's will"?
If not why not?
If so how can we know?
Happy pondering!
Why Does It Matter?
-
He remembers what the squall was, but his mom and dad never even had a
clue. Not even when the event took place. There is nothing quite like the
experience...
4 years ago
24 comments:
Dear Josiah,
Great question! I would have to answer "No not everything is God's will, rather everything can be used to further God's will."
Why? Let me begin with a couple of examples.
Example 1: Acts 9:36-42 records the story of Tabitha (a.k.a. Dorcus). She sewed clothes. Was this the will of God? No. Other people sewed (and some still do)clothes. Yet Tabitha, a disciple of Christ, used her skill in making clothes to further the will of God and reached many people.
Example 2: Acts 18:1-3 tells of Aquila and Priscilla who were tentmakers by trade. Paul, because he was of like craft (ie he was a tentmaker) abode with them and worked with them. Was this the will of God? No it was Paul's will, yet he used it to further God's will to preach the word.
Example 3: Genesis 3 records the story of Adam and Eve eating. Eating, in and of itself is not the will of God, yet they ate of a tree that God commanded them not to eat. That was not the will of God either. Yet God used that sin, to ultimately bring man back into a right relationship with Him and to defeat Satan through the perfect life of Christ.
Christian
christian everything happens according to God's plan, a.k.a. God's will. when you talk about Tabitha, - Paul, you are talking about talents, not everyone can sew, ect.
Dear Anonymous,
Ws it God's will, then, that Adam and Eve sin? Was it God's will that I eat a hamburger for my lunch? To say that every little detail of our day, every little task that we perform is God's will is too far of a stretch, especially seeing as the Scriptures do not bear that conclusion. Rather, the Scriptures do say that all things work together for good to them that love God (Romans 8:28) which certainly bears out my point of God being able to use everything to further His will (i.e. plan). God's will is never that man do evil (James 1:13; Romans 6:1-2; I Thessalonians 5:15).
My point in using the examples of Paul and Tabitha was that for them, these were everday tasks that they performed. And as such, it is applicable to us whether we drive everyday, or sit in front of a computer, or dig holes, or cook meals, or clean our house, etc. These are tasks which can be used to further God's plan (will) but in and of themselves they are not God's will.
Christian
christian, did the hamburger come from you or God? Mat 6:30. If adam and eve hadn't of sinned then we wouldn't have the plan of salvation. What about when Jesus was crucified, and beaten, was that not part of his plan?
God is omnipotent and all knowing
Dear Anonymous,
Are you suggesting then that because Adam and Eve sinned, they did so not of their own will but of God's?
Yes, God blessed me by providing the hamburger, however the point I make is the eating of the hamburger on that particular day was my own choosing. God did not say "Christian, I want you to eat hamburger for lunch today." I could have chosen to eat chicken or not had any meat at all. just because I choose to do something does not mean I do the will of God. But what I do, no matter if it be good or evil, CAN be used to further God's will (i.e. plan).
Adam and Eve chose not to follow God's will for He clearly stated His will "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat. . . " Genesis 2:17.
Jesus says that there are those who do not do God's will (Matthew 7:13-27 specifically verse 21) and therefore He does not accept or recognize or know them (II Thessalonians 1:7-9).
As I pointed out before, doing evil is NEVER God's will but God can still use evil actions to accomplish His plan. For examples look at the many cases in the OT wherein God used the evil nations as correction for His people. God did send His Son to take care of our sin and allow us to become His children (Galatians 1:4). Yet even Christ could have chosen not to obey God's will but He said "not my will but thine be done . . ." and was content to do the will of God (Matthew 26:38-42).
Yes, God knows all, and has all power, and is everywhere. But He made us with the capacity to think and the ability to make our own choices hence the reason sin exists and the need for the sacrifice of Christ. Had man chosen to do God's will back in the garden, there would have been no need for the Savior. But such indeed is hindsight. We must be careful never to confuse God's providential care for us (Matthew 6:24-34) with God's will for us (Acts 17:30-31).
Christian
Christian
As you already know Adam and Eve sinned of there own will however it was acording to God's plan.
a little bothered by you use of "CAN be used to further God's will" shouldn't it be, is used ?
Hmm, what shall I do this week? Ah! I think I will make the heavens and the earth and all that in them is. Then I can make man, maybe I will call them Adam and Eve. Then I can put them in the garden with some restrictions on what they can eat and do. Then according to my plan the old serpent will twist my word just a little and of course they will believe that slippery little fellow. They will eat of the forbidden fruit so I can curse the ground and cast them out of the garden and ultimately into eternal Hell. Oh this is such fun and such a wonderful plan I have made. Hezekiah 3:1-15
Hey I think I have finally made it to the same page as anonymous!
well saul what are you trying to say?
OOPS! I forgot the quotation marks.
"Hmm, what shall I do this week? Ah! I think I will make the heavens and the earth and all that in them is. Then I can make man, maybe I will call them Adam and Eve. Then I can put them in the garden with some restrictions on what they can eat and do. Then according to my plan the old serpent will twist my word just a little and of course they will believe that slippery little fellow. They will eat of the forbidden fruit so I can curse the ground and cast them out of the garden and ultimately into eternal Hell. Oh this is such fun and such a wonderful plan I have made." Hezekiah 3:1-15
There does that help?
Dear Anonymous,
When you make something, do you use every piece of material in that project of do you throw some away? For example, if you are making a deck and it calls for 18 deck boards that are 10 feet long and you have 19 that are 12 feet long. Do you use all 19? Or do you leave them all at 12 feet even though your plan calls for 10 foot boards? You use only what the plan calls for. The rest are either trashed or returned for credit. God CAN use any action of man, whether good or evil, to further His plan or will but that does not mean He always uses every action.
Again, Anonymous, you have mistaken my point so let me ask a different way. Can you point to any Scripture that says that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin?
To say that God wanted Adam and Eve to sin is saying a few things and all of them not in conjunction with God's Word nor are they good at all. For instance, it says
1.) that God is a capricious God setting man up purposely to fail just so He could enact a plan that was otherwise not needed. Yet God is neither a whimisical (James 1:17) nor a chaotic (I Corinthians 14:33)God.
2.) that God did not make us with the freedom to choose our way. Yet Adam and Eve were told not to eat of that one fruit and they chose to eat (Genesis 3). Man chooses to sin (James 1:13-15; Romans 1:17-33)
God's will is plainly put forth in the Scriptures. That will is that all men be saved (I Timothy 2:1-4), and because of that will, He waits not wanting any to perish (II Peter 3:9), and to acheive that end, He has commanded all men to repent (Acts 17:30). However, He knows that not all will accept His will (Matthew 7:21) and will therefore judge the world according to their deeds by the measurement of Christ (Acts 17:31; Romans 3:3-8 (deals with the relationship of Mosaical law to that of Christ but the principle applies here as well); Acts 10:38-43; II Timothy 4:1).
Christian
P.S. Welcome back Saul.
dear christian, as you yourself say God is not whimisical(James 1:17). Do you think that God had no idea before the world was created that they would sin? To use your example of a deck, you have to plan first right. Are you saying that God created adam & Eve and said, boy I hope they obey Me? Or do you supose that before He created the earth, He considerd the cost.Another example, you decide to drive to a friends house but he lives several states a way, you know your car gets 325 mpg, would you plan to drive till you have no gas left and are stuck on the side of the road, or would you plan to drive 300 miles and fill up?Luk 14:28
To say that God is not in controll of this world and what goes on here are some verses to consider,Pro 15:3, 16:1-4,7,9,33, Luk 14:28 James 4:13-15. If you step back and look at the Bible you will see God's plan and guidance in every page. also what you eat is a little extream but that you eat is more what I was saying.God is all knowing.
I was just wondering, anonymous, who said God is not in control? Only one I can see is yourself, when you said, "to say that God is not in control of this world". I'm puzzled. Deboraw
Dear Anonymous,
As u read through the previous posts, you might just happen to notice that I never once denied the omniscience of God, nor that God is in control, nor even that God planned to send Christ. I DID deny that Adam and Eve's sin was according to His will. I DID deny that God exercises total control over all of our actions for then we would not have nor need the ability to choose that Joshua 24:15clearly demonstrates we have (see also Romans 6 and 12). I DID also deny that God's providential care for man was the same as God's will for man.
God said He would take care of us as a father takes care of his children (Matthew 6:24-34). God did NOT say that our every action would be His will as a matter of fact there be those who refuse to do the will of God (Matthew 7:13-17, Romans 6:1-2, etc).
Proverbs 15:3 says that God is omnipresent.
Proverbs 16:1-4,7,9,33 show that man plans one way and God accomplishes another. But do not forget verse 25: There is a way that seemeth right to a man but its end is death.
Luke 14:28 deals with the cost of following Christ (not with God being in control). Just remember context is important Luke 14:26-34 is the context here wherein Jesus says that you should not begin to follow Him if you are not prepared to pay the cost even to the giving up of your family, all that one has and ultimately your life.
James 4:13-15 again deals with teh Christian life solely. We, as Christians need to subject our lives to the will of God. Again no refrence to our every action being under control of God nor indeed being the will of God only that it SHOULD be.
That I eat, hmm I believe I addressed that in the last paragraph of my June 18th where in I said "Yes, God knows all, and has all power, and is everywhere. But He made us with the capacity to think and the ability to make our own choices hence the reason sin exists and the need for the sacrifice of Christ. Had man chosen to do God's will back in the garden, there would have been no need for the Savior. But such indeed is hindsight. We must be careful never to confuse God's providential care for us (Matthew 6:24-34) with God's will for us (Acts 17:30-31)." See specifially the last sentence.
Now let me specifically address the issue of Adam and Eve. God created them and told them His will. He said: "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:26-27). He wanted them to obey His will. If they had, they wouldn't have died, and sin wouldn't have entered the world, and therefore Jesus would not have been required to sacrifice His life for you and me. However, God, who knows all and present everywhere (including all paths of time) knew that there was the possibility that man would not obey His will and would require a means of reconciliation. therefore He planned accordingly. Ephesians 3:8-13 speaks of Paul proclaiming Christ to the gentiles and enlightening everyone about God's plan and that the church was to make nown God's wisdom to the world (rulers and authorities) which is done according to His eternal plan that was accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord which, by faith in Him (Christ) we can confidently and boldly asccess that plan. Because of all of that, the Ephesians were not to be downhearted over Paul's suffering.
The point I am making by this lengthy discourse, is that God works His plan, Man does not always do the plan of God, God still can use man's actions, if He so wills it, to accomplish that plan, but ultimately it is man's choice whether to obey God and serve Him and live, or to disobey Him and not serve Him and die (Matthew 6:24-34; Romans 6:12-23).
Christian
P.S. When I go on a trip, I only wish I could have a car that got 325 mpg. Even then I would actually drive until I had reached the fuel light before I found the nearest station and filled up, which would be aroound the 3850 mile mark on a 12 gallon tank as is normally used in most cars. When I take trips (which is seldom) I actually figure only the cost of the gas needed to drive the distance and back, add a little for snacks and the possible overnight and a little extra for Mr. Murphy and total it all up. I do not, however, look at a map and say "I'll fill up in Alamagordo at the Amoco station of 29th and Elm St." (Of course I don't even know if there is such a place or even if 29th intersects Elm St. or if Alamagordo even has a 29th or an Elm St. as I don't live there). So much for planning. Christian
christian excuse the miss spelling (it was earliy morning for me and I was still kinda asleep).So what you are saying is that God doesn't know what you are going to do in your liftime before you are born? That God didn't put you here for a reason? question for you, did the people who followed God in the Bible choose God, or did God choose them? Yes we have choices (good or evil ) but God already knows what we will do.
also you missed pro.16:4.Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
some more verses to think about.mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Proverbs 16:4! This road is starting to look familiar. I had better be careful just in case my suspicions are correct. What is that on the reader board up ahead? "God created the heavens and the earth" signed Fred. Oh no! it is the same road. Better watch out there will be pot holes up ahead. Ah but this time I am on the same page as anonymous. His book says God created evil, but why worry about a little thing like that! That same book says there is no God. It is kind of confusing. Did He or didn't He, is He or isn't He? I guess it really doesn't make any difference, it is just a good book anyhow. I think I will dodge around this corner and dart out of town before I come to those potholes of enlightenment.
Hmm, I wonder if his God has any integrity?
Anonymous: Please reconcile Proverbs 16:4 according to your understanding with the following verses.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Ch 19:7 Now therefore let the fear of Jehovah be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with Jehovah our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of bribes.
1Jn 1:5 And this is the message which we have heard from him and announce unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
Looking forward to your response.
Dear Anonymous,
Do you read my posts or just skim through? Please, PLEASE go through and reread them then quote to me where I said that God does not know what I do before I do it/before I was born? Where did I say that I was not put here for a reason? Please quote me. I did not miss Proverbs 16:4, you included it in Proverbs 16:1-4,7,9,33 and so did I.
As I read through my post yesterday, I feel I must clarify something. I said "However, God, who knows all and present everywhere (including all paths of time) knew that there was the possibility that man would not obey His will and would require a means of reconciliation." I failed to put my thoughts clearly in that sentence, and for that I repent. God, who knows all and is present everywhere (including all paths of time), knew that man would choose to disobey Him even with the option present to obey God, and therefore He planned accordingly. This is not saying that God set man up to fail nor that God caused man to fail rather that God, being omniscient, knew how man would respond in that situation and planned to reconcile disobedient man to Himself. Hope that helps.
Anonymous, as we are talking about God's will, please stay on that topic. I will talk about God's mercy when Josiah brings it up as a topic. Until then, lets continue to discuss God's will for man.
Christian
P.S. to Saul. I have had the same suspiscion, due in part to the style of Anonymous' writing and the other part his responses, for a number of weeks now. I do want to say that this discussion is stimulating and helps refine our knowledge. Good blog and discussion Josiah. Christian
dear christian the reason I asked you those questions was so that you would understand that God is in control. Since God knows what you are going to do before you do it, you have a purpose and a reason for being here, hence He uses you to further his plan.If you look at it through man's eyes (as in man can't change history, he can just plan the future) then it doesn't make much sense but if you look at this through God's eyes (as in all things are possible with GOd) it does.
and yes I read your comments. Usualy about three times, and think about what you wrote.
prov. 16:4 is not talking about man's plans, it is talking about God's plan.
yes I know what Luke 14:28 is talking about but it is still a good principle in every day life isn't it? One that God would use?
James 4:13-15 is talking about life and death and what the Lord wills.also I never said that God sets us up to fail.
If all you got out of Rom. 19- 23, was mercy than I encourage you to reread those verses.
I won't ask you if you just skimm through my comments as you missed much of what I put in there.
who is Fred? As I have only been commenting for a little over two weeks not sure what you are talking about.
Josiah, God is Holy, Pure, Righteous,and in control. It makes sense to me, not sure what you are stumbling over.
P.S. why if Josiah and saul are the same person do you post under two names?
Where to begin, hmm. Some things are not right here. No one is disputing the fact (yes, it is a fact) that God is in control. The problem is, 'how' is he in control.
There are quite a few things that we will not know until we reach the other side of this life. We do know; 1. God is not capricious. Therefore these things should follow:
He will not punish any one for something that is not their own fault. -subpoint a) if I forced my children to go have a mud ball fight, knowing that they will get dirty, I would not punish them for doing what I forced them to do.
b) Likewise where is the 'reward' for doing good, when that is the only thing I COULD do?-.
God told Adam and Eve his will for them, and he tells us his will for us. (Side note, he also told Pharaoh what His will for him was, but Pharaoh's heart hardened [Pharaoh's pride hardened his heart Pro 16:5 Every one that is proud in heart is an abomination to Jehovah: Though hand join in hand, he shall not be unpunished.]
against that will,[Exo 5:2 "And Pharaoh said, Who is Jehovah, that I should hearken unto his voice to let Israel go? I know not Jehovah, and moreover I will not let Israel go."]
Question: what is disobedience? How could we disobey if it was God's plan that we go astray? Now, in Proverbs 16:4 it is merely restating the natural law (?) that we will reap what we sow. God has a punishment for all who disobey his will: "Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth unto his own flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth unto the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap eternal life."
We know from II Peter what the Lord's will is {2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.} So that if everything is according to God's will all of us will be saved; ie, come to repentance and not perish.
There are too many holes in the theory that everything is God's will. Who would say (honestly) that person A murders person B, and that's okay because it was all part of God's will/plan? Also, anonymous,if you read into some of the next posts some of these questions are addressed, perhaps more fully.
Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for responding to my question.
My point is that God is NOT in control of your EVERY action. If He was, you would simply be a puppet in the hands of a puppet master - acting without reason. God made us with a will, (Genesis 2:7) in His image (Genesis 1:26-28), and with the ability to choose (II Samuel 24:11-19). Man has the ability to choose to obey God and do His will or to disobey God and do his own will(Isaiah 65:1-12).
The fact that we have that choice, clearly shows that while God has a plan (Ephesians 3:8-13) and He accomplishes His plan without interruption (Proverbs 16:1-4 and II Timothy 1:7-10), man still has the choice to obey or disobey. God does not control our ability to choose rather offers the option to exercise it to man (see again Isaiah 65:1-12, also John 14:15).
Tell me Anonymous, do you have children? Or let me probe your memory of being a child. Growing up, did you always do what your father planned for you to do? To my shame, I know I did not. There were times, even though I knew my father's will, wherein I disobeyed my father and suffered for it. Yet, somehow his will got accomplished (a result of that suffering, I believe). Same is true of God for despite the willfulness of us He will accomplish His will.
Anonymous, you were the one that said we were to think about mercy and I quote "some more verses to think about.mercy." To which I request that you stay on the topic which is God's will.
Proverbs 16:4 is part of the context here that shows that God accomplishes His will despite the plans of man. "The plans of the heart are by man (man plans according to his desires) but the answer of the tongue is from Yahweh (God plans intelligently). All the ways of a man are pure in his eyes (man thinks that he is right in all that he does), but he who examines spirits is Yahweh (God judges and God knows). Commit your activities to Yahweh, and your plans will succeed (Put God first and you will be successful). Yahweh is working in everything to accomplish His own plans (God makes sure His plans succeed) yes even the wicked reap trouble (It is God's plan that they who do evil shall reap evil). All those proud in heart are repulsive to Yahweh (God detests pride c.f.. James 4:5-10) Most certainly they will be punished (they will be punished)." Proverbs 16:1-5. Hmm, yes, it in fact is contrasting man and his plans with God and His plans, showing which is superior.
James 4:13-15 talks about life and death, true. But look at its focus. Not upon life or death but upon man living life and how it SHOULD be lived according to God's will and not man's will. Even Paul said he had trouble living life as God wanted him to because of the desires of the flesh (Romans 7:13-25).
Ok, now on Luke 14:28, I'm a little confused on your point here. I knew the cost of being a Christian before I became one. Jesus utilized a fact of life to illustrate the importance of committing oneself wholly to Him. Yes that is a good rule of thumb for being a Christian. Your point of this being a good principle in life is lost if we do not have the ability to choose our way. It is also lost if one takes a Scripture out of context to prove a point. If the context of the verse used does not deal with the topic of discussion, then taking that verse from its context is wresting the Scriptures (II Peter 3:15-17).
Hmm, First you accuse me of saying things (without proof that I said those things which is why I asked if you only skim through what I say) and now you imply that I only skim through yours? Let me assure you that I take extreme care in reading your posts and trying to answer them. I freely admit that I was rushed for time in the post where I mistakenly used "possibility" and I also repented of that. I strive to follow Paul's instruction to Timothy in II Timothy 2:15 of both studying and handling aright the Word of Truth.
Your reference in Romans 9 contextually begins in 14 with Paul making the point that God has the right to bless and be merciful to those whom HE wills to bless and be merciful (e.g. He chooses to forgive the sins of those who submit to His conditions. see Proverbs 28:13; Isaiah 55:5-11 (specifically v. 7); Hebrews 5:5-9. Therefore, if the Jews did not meet the conditions, God has the right not to show mercy on them). Pharaoh's heart was hardened that God's power might be displayed to all. Yet, God clearly shows that Pharaoh was responsible for hardening His own heart (Exodus 8:15 & 32; 9:34; 10:3). Omniscient God simply provided the occasion and opportunity for Pharaoh to exercise that ability to choose. How would you have chosen if given the same opportunity? Again, we see God's power, majesty, and glory in spite of man's rebellion.
As far as I know Josiah and Saul are two different people. I failed to add another p.s. because I had to rush my significant other to the hospital. Yes everything is fine. Praise God.
Finally, who said Josiah was stumbling? He simply asked you to expound your understanding of those passages in conjunction with Proverbs 16:4.
Christian
Dear Deboraw, as we all agree God knows what we will do before we do,(not hard to understand)Christian and I both agree that He put us here for a reason. Does that mean that God makes us do anything? No. Pharaoh had a choice,yes but he also had a purpose. Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Christian, wasn't talking about mercy, when I copyied Rom.9:17 I didn't see that it was there. lol.
I see we are saying a lot of the same things, but you believe I'm saying that God makes us sin, or do good, never said that. Said that everything happens according to God's plan.
So if I build a house I shouldn't count the cost first because Luke 14:28 is talking about following Christ and that would be wresting the scriptures? My point was that God would also count the cost of creating the world before He created it.(He knew the cost before He created the world)
I wasn't accusing you of saying things I was asking if that was what you were trying to say.
glad to hear everything is fine with your significant other.
I understood Josiah to be saying that there was a contradition in the verses.
P.S. yes I have children.(not enough though) lol.
Dear Anonymous,
Pardon me for misunderstanding your intent with those questions. I thought I was extremely clear in my post prior to your asking. It is always most clear to the one writing, and not so much to the one reading.
Clarification: We believe, from your writing of statements like: "christian everything happens according to God's plan, a.k.a. God's will." and "As you already know Adam and Eve sinned of there own will however it was acording to God's plan.", that you say it was God's plan that Adam and Eve sin.
According to the Scriptures, God's plan (which was planned through God's foreknowledge of events) was to provide salvation, redemption, or reconciliation (your preference on which term is used) BECAUSE Adam and Eve sinned not to have Adam and Eve sin so that salvation might be brought about. What need is there of reconciliation if there is no separation?
Humor me a moment as I ask of you the question of you "Can you reference a Scripture where in it says that EVERYTHING that happens is God's plan?"
Not every action is needed to further God's will even as not all of the piece of lumber in my deck illustration is used to build that deck.
I am going to take issue with you on 2 matters.
Matter 1: You have quite the knack for wresting out of context what I am saying. I said that Jesus stated a FACT of life to illustrate His point of committing oneself wholly to Christ. And I mean exactly that. It is a fact that people count the cost of a project to make sure that they have enough to complete that project whether the Bible says to or not. Your use of it in this discussion to show that God was in control of this world was totally wrong and therefore you were indeed wresting that Scripture out of its context. I quote you again: "To say that God is not in controll of this world and what goes on here are some verses to consider,Pro 15:3, 16:1-4,7,9,33, Luk 14:28 James 4:13-15." (posted on June 30,2008). This verse makes no reference to God being in control of this world. I will agree that God knew the cost of creating the world for He obviously planned the scheme of redemption from the begining (Ephesians 3:8-13) but that is not gotten from this verse.
Matter 2: All men are put on this earth for the same purpose: To fear and serve God (Exodus 7:16; 9:1 & 13; Ecclesiastes 12:13-14; Matthew 4:10; Hebrews 12:22-29). That is the whole duty of man. Not just one or two men; all mankind. The purpose of Pharaoh was to serve God which he did not do, not hardening his heart. Nevertheless, God was glorified because, through the wickedness of Pharaoh; through Pharaoh's hardness of heart, God was able to show His mighty power to the world and to His people. That was the reason that God exalted Pharaoh to power. Again, had Pharaoh chosen to fear and serve God, God still would have been glorified, yet God knew as we have both stated, that Pharaoh would harden his heart when given this specific opportunity.
The question I have been pondering, and would like a seperate discussion or new blog post from Josiah if he is willing. "Is the will of God and the God's plan the same thing?"
Christian
P.S. Man, I really need to find shorter yet clearer ways to say things. LOL
Anonymous: let me make it abundantly clear that I believe the scriptures to be inspired by God. As such there are no mistakes or contradictions therein. I was only pointing out that if what you were saying was true it would contradict the verses I asked about.
It appears that the majority of this discussion has centered around your choice of words. Inherent in the statement "everything happens according to God's plan, a.k.a. God's will" is the idea that God planned for man to sin and made sure that it happened. This removes the ability to choose and makes robots of us. This is not what God intended! Yet to use that statement as you have done repeatedly demands this interpretation.
What would summarize what I think you are trying to say is "everything happens just as God knew it would."
More later. I must succumb to the sandman.
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